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Talk:F.A. 470-471
Thank you for adding this scenario. I did delete some lines i found contradicting or inapt, but as this is a complex scenario I guess we#ll have to discuss a few more details anyway.--Haerangil (talk) 20:05, October 16, 2017 (UTC) Edhellond So here is what it says about Tolkien Canon: "Edhellond was founded by Sindar before the end of the First Age, who had come there as refugees from Beleriand during Morgoth's ascendancy. At first the population of the haven was quite small since the refugees had come in just three small ships, but over time their numbers had been increased by Nandor who came down the Anduin." http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Edhellond Sinda are known as Grey Elves, therefore, I see Bladorthin, King of Dorwinion and of Edhellond one in the same, they should be joined together. Though never stated, but quite possibly he is another son of Galathil, the younger brother of Amdir and older brother of Nimloth. That part is speculation, but it is plausible that Galathil also came to Edhellond and then later established Dorwinion, died in the War of the Last Alliance, and then his son Bladorthin took over Dorwinion, while his other son Amdir, ruled Lothlorien. This is all plausible and I hope this helps, I know what I am doing, I am a Tolkienist and you can see the resources listed above. Moran half valar (talk) 21:51, October 17, 2017 (UTC) Haerangil, you are right however about Bladorthin, he could not be a Sinda because they would all hate Dwarfs and Noldor, so there are three possibilities here: One he is another son of Lenwe, two, he is a son of Voronwe (since by the book, he really didn't go with Earendil, this would then make him part Sinda and part Noldor), or three and this option could possibly work the best, he is the son of Gilmith, daughter of Imrazor and possibly an elf, which would make him one fourth man and half elf. This seems the most logical, so I will take him out of the First Age. Moran half valar (talk) 02:10, October 19, 2017 (UTC) :Well i don't doubt your Tolkienism. However Edhellond cant#t have existed in FA 470-71 if it was founded by Sindar who came as refugees from Beleriand during Morgoth's ascendancy can it? The Falas falls in FA 473, so the years to follow would be the most logical time for a foundation of Refugee colonies of which Edhellond would have been one.--Haerangil (talk) 21:48, October 27, 2017 (UTC) :Well then should we call it a refugee camp? I think you are arguing over semantics here, as the location for Sinda and Lenwe's elves are true here. Also, while I agree with the timeline (canon 473) it states in the text that the Sinda started going over there during Morgoth's reascendency--that could mean before the fall of the Falas. But if all you are doing is a name change, then I don't mind it. ::okay, I am allright with that there was a Nandsor-settlement in the region of Edhellond before the Sindar came, so maybe we just say there was an early settlement before the proper haven under this name was constructed? compromise?--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) ::Yes I agree with this full heartidly. Moran half valar (talk) 03:20, October 29, 2017 (UTC) Daeron Second, Daeron left Doriath by this time period, third it says in the books that Lenwe led his people South of the Anduin river, fourth, in merps, Bladorthin is of Dol Amroth and is a Sinda this is where he resides based on the lore and text of the book/merps, Sinda language eventually spreads to the Avari as Daeron teaches them, and the following shows that Dorwinion is an elvish land: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dorwinion : it is suggested that Daeron left Beleriand over the Ered Luin to the East, the south, which would include Gondor and Edhellond is not suggested as a place of his wanderings. besides it is implied that Daeron looked for lonelyness, so he most likely did not join any greater community .--Haerangil (talk) 22:00, October 27, 2017 (UTC) : Key word with Daeron IMPLIED that he looked for lonelyness, that only lasts so long. Then what, are telling me he just disappears or commits suicide? I don't think so, Tolkien never IMPLIED that, so I don't see why he couldn't be used here. ::I have collected some quotes for you in the other thread.--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) ::Saw them and responded Moran half valar (talk) 03:20, October 29, 2017 (UTC) Nargothrond & Belegost I have Telchar and Gamil Zirak. Gamil would most likely have been around at 1250-1300 -1497 , telchar between fa100-150-260. I see no way in which both could still have been around in FA 470.It#s tricky to include Dwálin here... I suggest Dwálin II awoke after Azaghal#s death in 472... still enough time to keep his people out of the Battle of the Thousand Caves in 503. I agree that Bodruith may have been Azaghals heir. I agree that Naugladur may have ruled already in 471 if he was a very ancient Dwarf in 503--Haerangil (talk) 22:15, October 27, 2017 (UTC) Okay, I admit, when it comes to the Dwarfs of MERPS and their timelines, you are the MASTER. I also don't have special access to the hidden documents of MERPS concerning the Lands of the Sun, New Lands, and Dark Lands. I go only what is based off of canon first, then MERPS second. That is what I tried to do here. If you could fill those gaps as well, I would much appreciate it. Thank you for clarifying this and the time :) Moran half valar (talk) 02:20, October 28, 2017 (UTC) ::All Sun, dark, new Lands Documents were never hidden or official MERP but fan-on only. I did find a few of them in old Issues of other Hands magazine or the Fan modules group however. NOTHING of this ever was even semi-official MERP Canon. We are free to use it or bits of it if we think it fits, or change whatever seems unlikely or contradict official sources.--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) ::Well either way, if you just present the ideas and post about the areas, I would appreciate it. Other hands and fanon are both acceptable and we can decipher the canon parts together. Moran half valar (talk) 03:22, October 29, 2017 (UTC) Nargothrond While i agree that Nargothrond at the time is one of the most powerful remaining realms in beleriand i cannot see how it can be one of the greatest economic powers in the world. The text does mention wealth in ore and jewels and fields outside Narrgothrond implkying some extend of agriculture, however still the region controlled by nargothrond ist still relatively small and isolated.--Haerangil (talk) 22:03, October 27, 2017 (UTC) Well I am referring to when Finrod brought the most wealth out of Valinor to Nargothrond. On Arda as it is in heaven. The resources brought from Valinor would have been extremely valuable and no doubt would have made them more wealthier than any of the Noldor factions, and maybe even more so than Khazad-Dum. : I'm okay with this, but does it mean nargothrond is a major economic power? Does this statement make sense in the context?--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) : Well I guess not, would you want me to say they are the most wealthy in middle earth, and Moria the second most wealthy? Moran half valar (talk) 03:23, October 29, 2017 (UTC) : I guess we can assume that Moria, Menegroth and Nargothrond were all three very wealthy realms... but Moria's most important era will yet have to come.... in the second Age. It hasn#t yet reached it#s peak.--Haerangil (talk) 19:47, October 30, 2017 (UTC) : You are right, I noticed that myself. I'll change it. So are you giving me free reign to put whatever i want in the New Lands? I'll try to make it as canonical to the books and Merps. Moran half valar (talk) 16:29, October 31, 2017 (UTC) Southern Forests I have removed thar Part about Ents and Fangorm, as Treebeard and Fimbrethil and the Ents still reside in Tasarinan and Ossiriand til the End of the First Age. It is not sure when Old man Willow arrived in the Old forest, he is said to be an eart-bound spirit who inhabts one of the old forests oldest trees... however even as the old forest itself is clearly existant from the first age, we can#t say this about even it#s oldest trees - though maybe we can suggest it#s trees have a longer lifespan than real-world trees, still about 6000 years seems much for a tree.--Haerangil (talk) 21:57, October 27, 2017 (UTC) Wait, I thought they were in the Southern Forest always, I don't remember Fangorn saying he was in the Blue Mountain area, I recall Leaflock being over there, maybe, but I don't remember Treebeard ever being over there. Can you site some material for me? I am okay with that change if it is canonical. But I don't remember if they are in Ossiriand. Moran half valar (talk) 02:24, October 28, 2017 (UTC) :Well Treebeard does cite Tasarinan and the valleys of Ossir in his song... http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/In_The_Willow-meads_Of_Tasarinan It is however not definitely said (as far as i can remember) when the Ents left Beleriand... but the drowning seems likely, as they may have taken part in the war of wrath.--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) You are right, a good find and I had forgotten this VALID detail. Excellent work. As far as the War of Wrath, I am sure they would have participated, I mean not much is known of the War of Wrath anyways, but If Treebeard went through the evil woods in Dorthinonion, then I don't see why he wouldn't have participated, especially with Eonwe and all the remaining elves, men, and maia going to battle. Moran half valar (talk) 03:26, October 29, 2017 (UTC) Changes Made I am content with all the changes you made Haerangil, but if you would really like to help, help me with the Land of the Sun and the Dark Lands. You shouldn't have to do too much because I have layed down the foundation work. However, I want to add this, in the books and in MERPS Azaghal is known as a LORD of Belegost, never called king. Gimli, Gwaihir, and others are called LORDS but they are not considered KINGs. Understand I am not yelling just emphasizing my points. You are Aule and I am Orome. I just bring the information for you to build upon. :) Moran half valar (talk) 02:44, October 28, 2017 (UTC) : of course you are right , Azaghal is never called king, only Lord. This might apply he was not King but a warleader under his King. Good point!--Haerangil (talk) 19:15, October 28, 2017 (UTC) : We both have our ups and downs as Tolkienists LOL, but I suggest we keep him as Lord and use King Dwalin II or III, we send Treebeard and Fimbrethil to Ossiriand, make Edhellond into a Nandor settlement, fill in the gaps of the Dark Lands/Lands of the Sun, and Daeron I think is the only thing we are on the fence about. We should rest our brains from such avid research, but I would really like you to give me some notes or pages regarding Lands of the Sun and or Dark Lands--if you could post articles for me to look at or fanon too, that would be helpful. Moran half valar (talk) 03:30, October 29, 2017 (UTC) :: Well all i have about the Dark Lands is the Articlke by Norman Talbot published in OH 4 and snippets from the Fanmodules group, and quite honestly i had to change and edit a lot to make it fit better to the canon. About the New Lands i have nothing. The Utter South/far Harad were covered by the Fanmodules group to quite some extend... i believe that region of Middle-earth is very well described by now.--Haerangil (talk) 19:44, October 30, 2017 (UTC)